IRC 2007/07/06

15:02:02 <vmx> hi
15:02:40 <WalterTamboer> hi
15:04:30 <WalterTamboer> Uhm, version 0.4 is totally f*cked....
15:04:36 <WalterTamboer> weird characters everywhere (unicode)
15:04:45 <WalterTamboer> it just doesn't work :)
15:07:02 <bermi_> Hi
15:07:08 <WalterTamboer> hey
15:07:10 <bermi_> sorry to be late
15:07:27 <bermi_> Hi Walter
15:07:34 <WalterTamboer> hello
15:07:40 <vmx> hi bermi
15:07:48 <bermi_> hi Volker
15:08:59 <vmx> i think we can start the meeting
15:09:06 <bermi_> ok
15:09:14 <WalterTamboer> well
15:09:17 <bermi_> 1. Selection API
15:09:24 <bermi_> 2. Opera Integration
15:09:24 <WalterTamboer> can I ask something first before you start? :)
15:09:28 <bermi_> yes
15:09:30 <WalterTamboer> if(!WYM_STRINGS)
15:09:32 <WalterTamboer> hm
15:09:40 <WalterTamboer> wait, just start, I need to make a screenshot of it
15:09:46 <bermi_> ok
15:10:02 <vmx> about the selection api
15:10:16 <vmx> bermi: have you take a look at my implementation? did it work for you?
15:10:40 <bermi_> Yes, I had a look at code, but didn't have the tiime to test it
15:10:50 <bermi_> I'll be testing it during the meeting
15:11:25 <bermi_> have you tried it on IE?
15:12:05 <vmx> no, there isn't an ie implementation yet
15:12:16 <WalterTamboer> (sorry to interrupt:  http://waltertamboer.nl/WeirdChars.png)
15:12:43 <bermi_> walter is your editor using UTF-8?
15:13:30 <WalterTamboer> well, don't know actually :) I thought of that so I downloaded a fresh version, uploaded it and it wasn't working either
15:14:10 <bermi_> that is the packed version, have you tried the version from trunk?
15:14:26 <WalterTamboer> not yet, I will, please continue with your meeting ;)
15:14:44 <bermi_> that might have something to do with the javascript packer, I'll have a look to the sourceforge version
15:14:55 <WalterTamboer> well it's also in the unpacked version
15:15:11 <WalterTamboer> version 0.3 and version 0.4 both have it
15:15:44 <vmx> i can confirm those strange cahracters in 0.4b sourceforge version
15:16:34 <vmx> it seems to be a problem with the build script
15:17:01 <vmx> ok, back to topic
15:17:45 <vmx> if no one hasn't tested the selection api yet, we can go to the next topic
15:17:51 <bermi_> I think it's important we fix the broken build
15:18:07 <bermi_> I'm testing the selection API now
15:18:50 <vmx> yes. what about finishing the discussion and then fixing that bug and testing the selection api?
15:19:27 <bermi_> ok
15:19:43 <vmx> 2) opera integration
15:20:43 <bermi_> walter, it seems that you're an Opera fan, what problems have you found in WYM using Opera?
15:21:32 <WalterTamboer> Well, it just doesn't work at all. Just 20 minutes ago I downloaded version 0.4 and I can't seem to get it working in IE, FF and Opera
15:21:38 <WalterTamboer> because of the weird characters
15:21:56 <WalterTamboer> I manually removed all weird chars to make it working
15:22:06 <WalterTamboer> but then I had a problem with the "each" function.
15:22:19 <WalterTamboer> (let me get the source part, one moment)
15:22:23 <bermi_> ok
15:23:17 <WalterTamboer> return this.each(function(i) {
15:23:18 <WalterTamboer> new Wymeditor($j(this),i,options);
15:23:18 <WalterTamboer> });
15:23:21 <WalterTamboer> that part
15:23:30 <WalterTamboer> that's not working at all with the latest version of jQuery
15:24:22 <bermi_> which jQuery version are you using?
15:24:42 <WalterTamboer> jquery 1.1.3.1
15:24:46 <bermi_> you need 1.1.3a
15:24:59 <WalterTamboer> ok
15:25:04 <vmx> hm it should work with 1.1.3.1
15:25:20 <WalterTamboer> Well, that each function seems to be broken
15:25:37 <vmx> walter: so it doesn't work with opera but with other browsers, right?
15:26:05 <WalterTamboer> it doesn't work with IE7, FF2 and Opera 9.20
15:26:29 <WalterTamboer> when you're using the latest version of jQuery (1.1.3.1) and the latest version of WYM (0.4)
15:26:47 <bermi_> Walter, I think that you should get the trunk version, to make sure the build didn't break more things that you didn't notice
15:27:30 <WalterTamboer> Hmm..
15:27:56 <WalterTamboer> I checked out the trunk
15:28:09 <WalterTamboer> but I'm not familiar with building or what you call it _at all_
15:28:11 <WalterTamboer> :)
15:28:13 <vmx> i get errors, too
15:28:22 <vmx> with 1.1.3.1
15:28:44 <bermi_> you don't need to build the trunk version in order to test it
15:29:04 <bermi_> so it's a jQuery bug?
15:29:25 <vmx> no sorry no errors
15:29:38 <vmx> walter: when do you get these errors? on startup?
15:30:49 <WalterTamboer> yup
15:31:03 <WalterTamboer> Wait, let me make a screenshot of what I'm seeing :)
15:31:23 <vmx> walter: which *.html are you using?
15:31:49 <WalterTamboer> my own
15:32:07 <WalterTamboer> just a PHP page I created
15:32:46 <vmx> walter: try to checkout trunk and try those in the test directory
15:32:55 <WalterTamboer> ok
15:34:22 <WalterTamboer> basic.html doesn't work in in FF, IE and Opera
15:34:51 <WalterTamboer> same with  http://localhost/WYMEditor/build/test/advanced.html
15:34:53 <WalterTamboer> oops
15:34:55 <vmx> for me it works. bermi can you also try it?
15:35:21 <bermi_> trunk works OK for me
15:35:30 <bermi_> I'll try sf cod
15:35:38 <vmx> walter: can you upload it somewhere?
15:35:44 <WalterTamboer> do I have to do anything special to run those test scripts?
15:35:57 <vmx> no
15:36:19 <vmx> sf has the problem with the weird characters
15:36:32 <vmx> these characters are BOMs btw
15:36:39 <WalterTamboer> wait a minute, I've got it working in the trunk
15:36:51 <WalterTamboer> there is a build directory and a src directory
15:36:59 <WalterTamboer> those in the build don't work, those in the src do work
15:37:51 <vmx> those in the build have the probem with the weird characterss
15:37:59 <WalterTamboer> ah ok
15:38:15 <WalterTamboer> So probablu the files from the build are uploaded to SF?
15:38:22 <WalterTamboer> probably*
15:38:51 <vmx> yes, the files in the sf release are from build
15:39:19 <bermi_> sorry to interrupt, but I have to go now. Volker, could you upload a doc showing how to use the selection API? I've tried it but without success.
15:39:47 <vmx> bermi: have you seen the tests in the source
15:39:49 <bermi_> BTW shouldn't the selection API be instantiated automatically?
15:40:05 <vmx> bermi: it is instantiated automatically
15:40:13 <bermi_> not in branch/0.5
15:40:27 <vmx> it is
15:40:43 <vmx> it just doesn't to anything
15:41:18 <bermi_> so, I could not make it work :(, I'll have a look in detail in two hours, I'll be hanging around here. Sorry but I have to leave now
15:41:24 <bermi_> bye
15:41:43 <WalterTamboer> bye
15:42:07 <vmx> cu bermi
15:42:20 <WalterTamboer> vmx, if I can do anything for you, just give a shout
15:42:22 <vmx> take a look at the small tests in the source
15:42:48 <vmx> walter: so it works with the "src-version"
15:42:55 <WalterTamboer> yup
15:43:07 <WalterTamboer> I copied those files to my working environment
15:43:19 <WalterTamboer> it does work in Opera to btw :)
15:43:21 <vmx> ok, then we just need to get rid of the BOM
15:44:25 <WalterTamboer> what are they actually? BOM?
15:44:45 <WalterTamboer> byte order mark, already got it :)
16:04:44 <bermi_> hi again
16:05:47 * ill is now known as chris|Forum
16:05:51 <chris|Forum> Hi
16:05:52 <bermi_> I had an emergency, sorry to leave so suddenly
16:06:06 <vmx> np
16:06:14 <bermi_> Hi Chris
16:06:28 <WalterTamboer> hey
16:06:28 <chris|Forum> Hey Bermi
16:07:11 <bermi_> Chirs, do you have your Image manipulation somewhere we can have a look at it?
16:07:46 <chris|Forum> Uploading it now... gotta wait for DNS to update too, so its a bit touch and go...
16:08:13 <vmx> removing that BOM isn't really that easy *argl*
16:08:50 <chris|Forum> please bear-in-mind that I was just 'playing' and its pre-alpha... I haven't even though about refactoring it yet, and I've only tested it in Camino.
16:09:08 <WalterTamboer> Could it be that WYMEditor causes problems when you're using RewriteUrls?
16:10:27 <chris|Forum> If you rewrite urls, normally you would want to exclude any urls that end in [.js|.jpg|.gif] etc etc...
16:10:29 <bermi_> wym automatically detects the base url with the method computeBasePath(), but I use it together with mod_rewrite and found no problems at all
16:11:01 <WalterTamboer> ok, than I'm just doing something wrong ;)
16:11:14 <bermi_> or add a rule to avoid rewriting if the file exists
16:11:51 <bermi_> something like
16:11:52 <bermi_> RewriteCond %{REQUEST_FILENAME} !-f
16:11:52 <bermi_> RewriteCond %{REQUEST_FILENAME} !-d
16:12:14 <WalterTamboer> yeah, that's how I got it setup right now
16:12:51 <bermi_> with those preconditions you should not have any problem
16:13:27 <WalterTamboer> I think I forgot to include the correct css file
16:14:21 <WalterTamboer> uhm, yes that was the problem hehe
16:16:40 <bermi_> volker, I have some doubts about how the Sel API works
16:18:07 <bermi_> wym._iframe.contentWindow.getSelection().toString() works fine, but I could not make the other methods work
16:19:13 <bermi_> shouldn't the selection API be accessible through something like wym.selectionAPI.getSelection()
16:20:43 <vmx> bermi, yes it should be
16:21:05 <vmx> isn't it? i really hadn't much time, i just merged the "quite old" code
16:23:58 <vmx> bermi: it's _wym.selection.callwhateveryouwant
16:24:10 <vmx> the wym object has a selection object
16:24:29 <vmx> from this you can call all functions i defined in the selection api
16:24:52 <bermi_> ok, I'll try that
16:24:53 <bermi_> are there plans for adding insertAtCaret() or something similar to the selecion API?
16:26:08 <vmx> e,g, wym.selection.isAtStart()
16:26:37 * chris|Forum is now known as chris|away
16:26:47 <vmx> no not yet, but it can be added
16:27:03 * chris|away is now known as chris|brb
16:27:11 <bermi_> I can access having my wym instance at wym, I can run wym.selection.getSelection().toString(), but it doesn't work from the firebug console
16:27:32 <WalterTamboer> This there a list of things that don't work in Opera?
16:27:48 <vmx> i designed the api for the "mean" features, but it could also be used for things like inserting
16:28:36 <vmx> bermi: you'd call wym.getSelection() and then it 'll be stored in wym.selection afaik
16:28:43 <bermi_> I think that a cross-browser insertAtCaret can be useful for plugins that need to modify the document, after implementing that you can just implement a replaceSelection by simple deletions/insertion
16:28:52 <vmx> but i's called on every keydown atm
16:29:06 <vmx> so you should be able to call the functions directly
16:29:22 <bermi_> ok, we need the selection to be available at any time
16:29:39 <vmx> theredore it's updated on every keydown
16:30:34 * jomz has quit ()
16:30:36 <bermi_> IMO not only keydown, I'll select just with the cursor and if I click on a WYM button I want to have the selection available for further processing
16:30:50 <vmx> yes, sure
16:32:14 <vmx> please update trunk and create a new build
16:32:25 <vmx> now there shouldn't be any boms in the files now
16:32:33 <vmx> so the buld should work again
16:32:45 <vmx> bermi: that was my 2) event handling
16:33:02 <vmx> the event handling needs a better architecture
16:33:44 <vmx> the whole event handling should go into the general wymeditor file.
16:34:03 <vmx> then these handler can call methods that are implement browser specific
16:34:55 <vmx> atm the handlers are quite scattered in the source
16:35:25 <vmx> WalterTamboer: still here?
16:35:50 <WalterTamboer> yup
16:36:24 <vmx> can you test the new makefile?
16:36:39 <vmx> oh, are you a linux user?
16:36:40 <bermi_> have you any suggestion about a suitable event handling implementation?, Observer?
16:36:59 <WalterTamboer> Nope, WinXP
16:37:07 <vmx> i haven't yet taken a look at the observer stuff
16:37:33 <vmx> walter: ok then youprobably can't test it
16:37:44 <vmx> my suggestion:
16:38:17 <vmx> put all keyup, keydown, mouse... handlers in the general file
16:38:24 <vmx> handle everything browser independant there
16:38:47 <vmx> and call browser specific methods from there
16:39:07 <vmx> don't implement handlers in the browser specific files
16:39:30 <bermi_> I also like it that way
16:40:23 <vmx> e.g. there would be a method "getSelection()" in the keydownhandler
16:40:42 <vmx> and this function is implemented in the specific files
16:41:50 <vmx> that should go into the 0.5 branch
16:42:05 <vmx> so if you change anything feel free to make it that way
16:42:17 <bermi_> do you have the time do do those changes?
16:42:26 <vmx> not really
16:42:51 <bermi_> so I do, I'm really busy this month
16:43:21 <vmx> about the naming: the methods are called "keydown", shouldn't they be named "handleKeydown"? as they are handlers?
16:43:43 <bermi_> it makes sense
16:43:50 <vmx> ok
16:43:58 <vmx> let's see what i can do
16:44:44 <bermi_> I already did some work on custom handlers for the safari implementation at branches/new_parser
16:45:37 <bermi_> I added handlers to exec commands, so you could intercept them if you had a handler implemented
16:45:53 <vmx> ok i'll take a look (when i've time :)
16:47:28 <vmx> any further things for the meeting?
16:47:42 * chris|brb is now known as chris|forum
16:48:04 <chris|forum> You should be able to see the image thing now...
16:48:11 <chris|forum>  http://lux.chrishawes.net/
16:48:18 <bermi_> lets have a look
16:48:33 <chris|forum> If DNS hasn't updated for you, then you'll go to my blog, which will bore you to tears.
16:49:21 <vmx> chris: cool
16:49:26 <chris|forum> I had to remove the upload for security...
16:50:27 <chris|forum> I'd like to move all the JS into the parent and not the iframe, then have the frame target as an option in the configuration for WYMeditor... That way its easy to integrate into whatever CMS / Blog etc etc you like.
16:51:02 <chris|forum> Simply ensure all images you wish to be able to insert have the class .wym or something...
16:54:08 <bermi_> Looks promising
16:54:36 <vmx> bermi: is the current selection api useful for you?
16:54:40 <bermi_> does it require Cake for the PHP part?
16:55:54 * ill is now known as chris|forum_
16:56:03 <chris|forum_> Sorry, I got disconnected..
16:56:19 <chris|forum_> I'll resend my last couple of messages incase they didn't get through.
16:56:27 <bermi_> I have to work on it, but I think that we need a better event handling for wym functions in order to make cleaner code. I'll try work with it this weekend.
16:57:23 <chris|forum_> How do people feel with WYMeditor having dependancies on other jQuery plugins?
16:57:43 <vmx> bermi take a look at my braches/v.mische/test/002
16:57:58 <bermi_> the selection API nicely integrated with event handling can be rally useful for developing plugins
16:58:01 <bermi_> I will
16:58:01 <vmx> if you do it, it had already better event handling
16:59:29 <vmx> chris: i think that would be ok
17:00:44 <chris|forum_> There is a very good plugin for dealing with iframes, I want to make the changes to the image thing over the weekend, I was unsure if I should use it.
17:00:58 <chris|forum_> I'll try not to either way
17:02:18 <bermi_> volker, I like your code in test/002
17:03:19 <bermi_> I think that we need to start reducing browser specific code
17:03:59 <bermi_> chris, do you think that your code can be easily adapted for other programming languages?
17:07:02 <chris|forum_> I'd like to stay away from providing the functionality for people to upload images, just provide to functionality for people to easily integrate their own. I will of course provide example image scripts probably in PHP, maybe Perl...
17:07:21 <chris|forum_> I won't have a problem getting a .NET developer to make one for me though.
17:08:12 <bermi_> in last week chat we had a talk about a common media management interface, volker do you have a transcript of the conversation for uploading it into the wiki?
17:08:50 <vmx> i haven't uploaded anything. so if jf hasn't
17:09:35 <bermi_> do you have a transcript log in your IRC client? I just checked mine, but I'm not logging my chats
17:10:57 <bermi_> I was supposed to write a doc about a generic approach for file management. The idea was to create a simple set of conventions that would allow implementation of media management using any server-side language in a very simple way. Some basic JSON for sending file information to the JS interface
17:11:42 * chris|forum has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
17:13:15 * Offering wymlog20070607.txt to bermi_
17:14:36 <vmx> i'll do something else now, but will be around, so if anyone needs something just pm me
17:15:04 <bermi_> one off topic message
17:16:16 * DCC SEND wymlog20070607.txt to bermi_ timed out - aborting.
17:18:56 <bermi_> I have decided to open source the CMS that I'm developing at my company which is code in PHP and it's a sort of mixture between Radiant CMS and Drupal, but using the Akelos Framework as base and focused in making the most usable CMS for non technical users. I need some help to get started a community environment with trac and subversion in a decent way.
17:19:46 <bermi_> I have an account at Dreamhost, other at CVSDude, another one a RailsPlayground and my Akelos project at Google Code, I don't like any of those environments
17:20:05 <bermi_> Well dreamhost is OK, but downtimes make it useless
17:21:22 <chris|forum_> I don't know the Akelos framework, I use CakePHP, which has a fantastic community.. They are very good at getting behind other projects too, and offer free project hosting for open source projects.
17:24:46 <vmx> bermi: sorry i can't help
17:25:20 <bermi_> After having a look at Cake, I decided to bring Ruby on Rails magic to PHP by creating Akelos. Unluckily I don't have much time for server administration duties, so I really need help there. Akelos doesn't have a strong community yet (it's my fault) so in order to get more people involved I prepared a screen-cast  http://www.archive.org/details/AkelosFrameworkScreencast.ThePowerOfRailsOnPhp
17:27:02 <bermi_> I hope that after the new akelos.org website is ready and the video distributed Akelos can gain popularity and the community can grow, then I'll look for help for the CMS again :)
17:27:21 <chris|forum_> One of the things that attracts me to Cake are the feature currently being implemented in 1.2... Support for memcache, mysql, postgres, sqlite, web services and more... But I'll certainly have a look at your framework, so far it looks very good.
17:27:25 <bermi_> do you know any other place (different from Cake) were I can find help for this?
17:27:50 <chris|forum_> Have you tried sourceforge project hosting?
17:27:53 <bermi_> You have all that in Akelos ;)
17:28:10 <chris|forum_> I look forward to looking at Akelos...
17:28:32 <chris|forum_> Is there a reference project for Akelos?
17:29:01 <bermi_> I don't like it :( I think it's more of a personal thing, I REALLY like Trac, but I had my in-house server taken by spammers, so I moved to Google Code
17:29:10 <WalterTamboer> I need to go, bye
17:29:18 <bermi_> see you Walter
17:29:22 <chris|forum_> bye
17:30:11 <bermi_> AFAIK there a no Open Sourced projects coded using Akelos, many people use it for coding th
17:30:25 <bermi_> ... for coding intranets
17:31:01 <chris|forum_>  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comparison_of_free_software_hosting_facilities
17:31:50 <chris|forum_> Where abouts do you live? Is there government funding available? The German government is very very friendly to open source, and provides free project hosting!
17:33:03 <bermi_> Not here in Spain :(
17:33:19 <bermi_> thanks for the link
17:34:21 <chris|forum_> Can your employer help you? Have they got a suitable environment set up?
17:35:31 <bermi_> We have 2 servers for shared hosting, but Its Apache 1.3 and not everyone can access  svn:// ports
17:35:56 <bermi_> I used to have it on our own servers, but we cant make the switch to Apache 2
17:38:26 <bermi_> for our company projects we use cvsdude, but I really don't like the idea of  http://mirror3.cvsdude.com/trac/example/project/
17:39:11 <bermi_> I might ask jfh after he comes back from his vacations, he might help me on this one